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12月29日の日記
2007年12月29日There are 5 messages totalling 215 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Spells on the stack and champion (3)
2. MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272) (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 14:00:16 -0800
From: Steve Earthbourne
Subject: Re: Spells on the stack and champion
Patrik Linell asks:
> A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can...
I don’t think the last sentence of rule 502.72a that you quoted quite makes
sense if the Championed object isn’t a permanent:
"...When this permanent leaves play， return the removed card to play under
its owner’s control."
> can Vedalken Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to its owner’s
hand， Venser-style?
or better yet， a Nameless Inversion...
-Steve
------------------------------
Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 23:04:14 +0100
From: Patrik Linell
Subject: Re: Spells on the stack and champion
On Dec 22， 2007 10:58 PM， Steve Earth wrote:
> Patrik Linell asks:
>
> > A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> > spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> > the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> > that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can...
>
> I don’t think the last sentence of rule 502.72a that you quoted quite makes
> sense if the Championed object isn’t a permanent:
>
> "...When this permanent leaves play， return the removed card to play under
> its owner’s control."
At which point 217.1a would kick in， preventing the Faerie Trickery
from returning， but this still doesn’t say it can’t be removed in the
first place.
> > can Vedalken Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to its owner’s
> hand， Venser-style?
>
> or better yet， a Nameless Inversion...
Which is a Sliver spell...
------------------------------
Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 18:59:04 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Spells on the stack and champion
On Dec 22， 2007 10:24 AM， Patrik Linell wrote:
> A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can.
I agree， the "[object]" part of 502.72a is a bit misleading， but
fortunately there’s another rule which comes to the rescue.
> The Faerie Trickery on the stack is clearly an object， he is
> controlling it， and it is a Faerie.
This last part is where it breaks down... it isn’t "a Faerie"， it’s a
"Faerie spell." According to 200.9， something is only "a Faerie" if
it’s a permanent:
200.9 If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that
includes a card type or subtype， but doesn’t include the word "card，"
"spell，" or "source，" it means a permanent of that card type or
subtype in play.
Champion is just such an ability. Similarly， Vedalken AEthermage
can’t venser a Sliver spell， because it’s not "a Sliver".
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun， 23 Dec 2007 13:49:33 +0100
From: Patrik Linell
Subject: Re: MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272)
On Dec 22， 2007 9:00 PM， MTGRULES-L automatic digest system
wrote:
> Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 18:24:57 +0100
> From: Patrik Linell
> Subject: Spells on the stack and champion
>
> A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can.
(...)
> Similarly， can Vedalken Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to
> its owner’s hand， Venser-style?
Never mind the above questions. Louis Lopez pointed out to me that the
Lorwyn primer answers them， and after a bit more digging around I
found the rule doing so. For the benefit of others:
200.9. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that
includes a card type or subtype， but doesn’t include the word "card，"
"spell，" or "source，" it means a permanent of that card type or
subtype in play.
I never read past 200.8 when looking for the definition of "object".
------------------------------
Date: Sun， 23 Dec 2007 13:31:09 +0000
From: Robert Stanjer
Subject: Re: MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272)
> Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 12:00:03 -0800> From: LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>=
Subject: MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272)> To: M=
TGRULES-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> > There are 3 messages totalling 114 lines in=
this issue.> > Topics of the day:> > 1. Text Changing Effects (2)> 2. Spel=
ls on the stack and champion> > -------------------------------------------=
---------------------------> > Date: Fri， 21 Dec 2007 16:09:05 -0500> From:=
Matthew Lashof-Regas > Subject: Re: Text Changing Ef=
fects> > > > If I create a Kithkin Soldier Token， and I target it with Arti=
ficial> > Evolution， changing "Kithkin" to "Frog"， it is now a Frog Soldier=
.> > > Its name is still "Kithkin Soldier" though， right?> >> > Correct. AE=
changes the rules text， including type line， but not the> > name.> >> > If=
you were to use Artificial Evolution on the effect that creates the token>=
(Say， Militia’s Pride’s ability)， before the token actually comes into pla=
y，> would its name then be Frog Warrior?> > ------------------------------>=
> Date: Fri， 21 Dec 2007 15:01:22 -0700> From: Gavin Duggan > Subject: Re: Text Changing Effects> > On Dec 21， 2007 2:09 PM， Ma=
tthew Lashof-Regas wrote:> > > > If I create a Kithk=
in Soldier Token， and I target it with Artificial> > > Evolution， changing =
"Kithkin" to "Frog"， it is now a Frog Soldier.> > > > Its name is still "Ki=
thkin Soldier"> >> > If you were to use Artificial Evolution on the effect =
that creates the token> > (Say， Militia’s Pride’s ability)， before the toke=
n actually comes into play，> > would its name then be Frog Warrior?> > Sort=
of. Artificial Evolution can only target a spell or permanent...> not an a=
bility on the stack (and definately not an effect， which is> something else=
entirely)， but I see where you’re going with it， and> yes: if you were to =
target Milita’s Pride itself (ie: target the> enchantment， not the ability =
on the stack)， before its ability goes on> the stack it would create tokens=
both named Frog Warrior and with the> subtypes Frog Warrior.> > Similarly，=
if you were to target a Raise the Alarm on the stack> (whether played as a=
card， or as a copy from Isochron Scepter)， you> would change both the name=
and the types of the tokens created on> resolution.> > --> Gavin Duggan， L=
3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep> Please read the list protocol before posting =
to this list:> * http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html=
> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 18:24:57 +0100=
> From: Patrik Linell > Subject: Spells on the stack an=
d champion> > A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in respons=
e to a> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champio=
n> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do> th=
at， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can.> > 502.72a Champion=
represents two triggered abilities. "Champion an> [object]" means "When th=
is permanent comes into play， sacrifice it> unless you remove another [obje=
ct] you control from the game" and> "When this permanent leaves play， retur=
n the removed card to play> under its owner’s control."> > The Faerie Trick=
ery on the stack is clearly an object， he is> controlling it， and it is a F=
aerie. While the notes in the rules> primer seem to indicate that only perm=
anents can be championed， the> rules do not say so.> > However， since rule =
502.72c reads...> > 502.72c A permanent is "championed" by another permanen=
t if the latter> removes the former from the game as the direct result of a=
champion> ability.> > ...the land-tapping ability of Mistbind Clique shoul=
d not trigger when> the Faerie Trickery is removed， as it is not a permanen=
t. This doesn’t> sound like it was the intention.> > Similarly， can Vedalke=
n Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to> its owner’s hand， Venser-=
style?> > Mistbind Clique> 3U> Creature - Faerie Wizard> Flash> Flying> Cha=
mpion a Faerie> When a Faerie is championed with Mistbind Clique， tap all l=
ands target> player controls.> 4/4> > Vedalken AEthermage> 1U> Creature - V=
edalken Wizard> Flash> When Vedalken AEthermage comes into play， return tar=
get Sliver to its> owner’s hand.> Wizardcycling 3> 1/2> > -----------------=
-------------> > End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#20=
07-272)> *****************************************************************
Unless otherwise specified， whenever "faerie" or "Sliver"， or any other cre=
ature type is named， it refers to a permanent.
=20
So， no， you cant champion faeries on the stack， and you cant return slivers=
on the stack to their owners hands， similarly in the way that the new trib=
e-cantrips from lorwyn don’t trigger themselves.
_________________________________________________________________
Get Hotmail on your mobile， text MSN to 63463!
http://mobile.uk.msn.com/pc/mail.aspx=
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 22 Dec 2007 to 23 Dec 2007 (#2007-273)
*****************************************************************
Topics of the day:
1. Spells on the stack and champion (3)
2. MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272) (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 14:00:16 -0800
From: Steve Earthbourne
Subject: Re: Spells on the stack and champion
Patrik Linell asks:
> A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can...
I don’t think the last sentence of rule 502.72a that you quoted quite makes
sense if the Championed object isn’t a permanent:
"...When this permanent leaves play， return the removed card to play under
its owner’s control."
> can Vedalken Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to its owner’s
hand， Venser-style?
or better yet， a Nameless Inversion...
-Steve
------------------------------
Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 23:04:14 +0100
From: Patrik Linell
Subject: Re: Spells on the stack and champion
On Dec 22， 2007 10:58 PM， Steve Earth wrote:
> Patrik Linell asks:
>
> > A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> > spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> > the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> > that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can...
>
> I don’t think the last sentence of rule 502.72a that you quoted quite makes
> sense if the Championed object isn’t a permanent:
>
> "...When this permanent leaves play， return the removed card to play under
> its owner’s control."
At which point 217.1a would kick in， preventing the Faerie Trickery
from returning， but this still doesn’t say it can’t be removed in the
first place.
> > can Vedalken Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to its owner’s
> hand， Venser-style?
>
> or better yet， a Nameless Inversion...
Which is a Sliver spell...
------------------------------
Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 18:59:04 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Spells on the stack and champion
On Dec 22， 2007 10:24 AM， Patrik Linell wrote:
> A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can.
I agree， the "[object]" part of 502.72a is a bit misleading， but
fortunately there’s another rule which comes to the rescue.
> The Faerie Trickery on the stack is clearly an object， he is
> controlling it， and it is a Faerie.
This last part is where it breaks down... it isn’t "a Faerie"， it’s a
"Faerie spell." According to 200.9， something is only "a Faerie" if
it’s a permanent:
200.9 If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that
includes a card type or subtype， but doesn’t include the word "card，"
"spell，" or "source，" it means a permanent of that card type or
subtype in play.
Champion is just such an ability. Similarly， Vedalken AEthermage
can’t venser a Sliver spell， because it’s not "a Sliver".
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun， 23 Dec 2007 13:49:33 +0100
From: Patrik Linell
Subject: Re: MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272)
On Dec 22， 2007 9:00 PM， MTGRULES-L automatic digest system
wrote:
> Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 18:24:57 +0100
> From: Patrik Linell
> Subject: Spells on the stack and champion
>
> A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in response to a
> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champion
> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do
> that， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can.
(...)
> Similarly， can Vedalken Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to
> its owner’s hand， Venser-style?
Never mind the above questions. Louis Lopez pointed out to me that the
Lorwyn primer answers them， and after a bit more digging around I
found the rule doing so. For the benefit of others:
200.9. If a spell or ability uses a description of an object that
includes a card type or subtype， but doesn’t include the word "card，"
"spell，" or "source，" it means a permanent of that card type or
subtype in play.
I never read past 200.8 when looking for the definition of "object".
------------------------------
Date: Sun， 23 Dec 2007 13:31:09 +0000
From: Robert Stanjer
Subject: Re: MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272)
> Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 12:00:03 -0800> From: LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM>=
Subject: MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#2007-272)> To: M=
TGRULES-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM> > There are 3 messages totalling 114 lines in=
this issue.> > Topics of the day:> > 1. Text Changing Effects (2)> 2. Spel=
ls on the stack and champion> > -------------------------------------------=
---------------------------> > Date: Fri， 21 Dec 2007 16:09:05 -0500> From:=
Matthew Lashof-Regas > Subject: Re: Text Changing Ef=
fects> > > > If I create a Kithkin Soldier Token， and I target it with Arti=
ficial> > Evolution， changing "Kithkin" to "Frog"， it is now a Frog Soldier=
.> > > Its name is still "Kithkin Soldier" though， right?> >> > Correct. AE=
changes the rules text， including type line， but not the> > name.> >> > If=
you were to use Artificial Evolution on the effect that creates the token>=
(Say， Militia’s Pride’s ability)， before the token actually comes into pla=
y，> would its name then be Frog Warrior?> > ------------------------------>=
> Date: Fri， 21 Dec 2007 15:01:22 -0700> From: Gavin Duggan > Subject: Re: Text Changing Effects> > On Dec 21， 2007 2:09 PM， Ma=
tthew Lashof-Regas wrote:> > > > If I create a Kithk=
in Soldier Token， and I target it with Artificial> > > Evolution， changing =
"Kithkin" to "Frog"， it is now a Frog Soldier.> > > > Its name is still "Ki=
thkin Soldier"> >> > If you were to use Artificial Evolution on the effect =
that creates the token> > (Say， Militia’s Pride’s ability)， before the toke=
n actually comes into play，> > would its name then be Frog Warrior?> > Sort=
of. Artificial Evolution can only target a spell or permanent...> not an a=
bility on the stack (and definately not an effect， which is> something else=
entirely)， but I see where you’re going with it， and> yes: if you were to =
target Milita’s Pride itself (ie: target the> enchantment， not the ability =
on the stack)， before its ability goes on> the stack it would create tokens=
both named Frog Warrior and with the> subtypes Frog Warrior.> > Similarly，=
if you were to target a Raise the Alarm on the stack> (whether played as a=
card， or as a copy from Isochron Scepter)， you> would change both the name=
and the types of the tokens created on> resolution.> > --> Gavin Duggan， L=
3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep> Please read the list protocol before posting =
to this list:> * http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html=
> > ------------------------------> > Date: Sat， 22 Dec 2007 18:24:57 +0100=
> From: Patrik Linell > Subject: Spells on the stack an=
d champion> > A player asked me if he could play Faerie Trickery in respons=
e to a> spell and then in response to that play Mistbind Clique and champio=
n> the Faerie Trickery. I’m fairly sure he’s not meant to be able to do> th=
at， but as the rules stand I’d have to say that he can.> > 502.72a Champion=
represents two triggered abilities. "Champion an> [object]" means "When th=
is permanent comes into play， sacrifice it> unless you remove another [obje=
ct] you control from the game" and> "When this permanent leaves play， retur=
n the removed card to play> under its owner’s control."> > The Faerie Trick=
ery on the stack is clearly an object， he is> controlling it， and it is a F=
aerie. While the notes in the rules> primer seem to indicate that only perm=
anents can be championed， the> rules do not say so.> > However， since rule =
502.72c reads...> > 502.72c A permanent is "championed" by another permanen=
t if the latter> removes the former from the game as the direct result of a=
champion> ability.> > ...the land-tapping ability of Mistbind Clique shoul=
d not trigger when> the Faerie Trickery is removed， as it is not a permanen=
t. This doesn’t> sound like it was the intention.> > Similarly， can Vedalke=
n Aethermage be used to return a Sliver spell to> its owner’s hand， Venser-=
style?> > Mistbind Clique> 3U> Creature - Faerie Wizard> Flash> Flying> Cha=
mpion a Faerie> When a Faerie is championed with Mistbind Clique， tap all l=
ands target> player controls.> 4/4> > Vedalken AEthermage> 1U> Creature - V=
edalken Wizard> Flash> When Vedalken AEthermage comes into play， return tar=
get Sliver to its> owner’s hand.> Wizardcycling 3> 1/2> > -----------------=
-------------> > End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 21 Dec 2007 to 22 Dec 2007 (#20=
07-272)> *****************************************************************
Unless otherwise specified， whenever "faerie" or "Sliver"， or any other cre=
ature type is named， it refers to a permanent.
=20
So， no， you cant champion faeries on the stack， and you cant return slivers=
on the stack to their owners hands， similarly in the way that the new trib=
e-cantrips from lorwyn don’t trigger themselves.
_________________________________________________________________
Get Hotmail on your mobile， text MSN to 63463!
http://mobile.uk.msn.com/pc/mail.aspx=
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 22 Dec 2007 to 23 Dec 2007 (#2007-273)
*****************************************************************
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