1月17日の日記
2008年1月15日There are 3 messages totalling 138 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Boggart Mob
2. Destroy + Indestructible + Regenerate
3. Morningtide Rules Primer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon， 14 Jan 2008 12:46:57 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Boggart Mob
On Jan 8， 2008 12:25 PM， Gavin Duggan wrote:
> The boggarts win after all， and somehow corrupted my sources while
> they were at it. Triggers (and prevention or replacement effects)
> such as this DO use LKI -- or rather， the source of the damage uses
> LKI when queried as to its properties.
I’ve received a number of questions about this ruling; why it works
and which rule says so. I admit， it’s not entirely obvious from a
first reading of the， so I figured I’d take a stab at explaining it
fully here.
The two points of confusion seem to be
A) What types of information does LKI cover?
B) Does LKI apply in this situation -- is it correct to use LKI when
matching a trigger condition?
It’s important to note that LKI is defined by rule 413.2f. Other
rules which mention LKI are clarification or reminder rules (Thanks to
Jeff Jordan for helping sort this mess out):
413.2f. If an effect requires information from the game (such as the
number of creatures in play)， the answer is determined only once， when
the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a
specific object， including the source of the ability itself， the
effect uses the current information of that object if it hasn’t
changed zones; otherwise， the effect uses the last known information
the object had before leaving the zone it was expected to be in.
One such reminder rule is 310.4b: "The source of the combat damage is
the creature as it currently exists， if it’s still in play. If it’s no
longer in play， its last known information is used to determine its
characteristics. "
Unfortunately， it says ’characteristics’... which might lead some
people to believe that’s the only information that LKI applies to， but
last known information applies to ALL information that the game is
trying to determine about the actor. This includes controller，
flipped status， etc... the game effectively looks back in time to see
the properties of the actor _as it was_.
That small problem notwithstanding， 310.4b is very useful. It
confirms what CR413 told us... when the game does something based on a
combat damage source， it uses LKI if the actor has since changed
zones. It requires a little discretionary interpretation to get from
there to triggering abilities using LKI as well， but the ability
triggers based on the actor’s properties... and we know that it’s
properties are determined via LKI if it has changed zones.
Hopefully that clears up some of the logic and rules behind the use of
LKI for triggered abilities.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon， 14 Jan 2008 20:28:54 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Destroy + Indestructible + Regenerate
These aren’t exactly the same question， but they’re fairly similar in
reasoning， so....
On Jan 9， 2008 11:46 AM， Shalom Ashwal wrote:
> What happens if I target a knight of the holy nimbus equipped with shield
> of kaldra with vindicate?
> Is the destroy effect replaced by tapping the creature， removing all damage
> from it ect.. or since the creature is indestructible there is nothing to
> replace?
If something is indestructable， it can’t be destroyed. If it’s never
destroyed then its destruction can’t be replaced by regeneration... so
nothing happens.
> What about maralen of the mornsong (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?
> x=magic/morningtide/preview) and tomorrow
> (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Tomorrow，％20Azami’s％
> 20Familiar) if players can’t draw cards， does that mean they also can’t
> replace draws?
I know some people try to avoid spoilers until the prerelease so I’ve
let this idle for a few days to give them fair warning.
In any case... Tommorow’s ability replaces draws， but Malaren says you
can’t draw. Similar to the above situation， if something never
happens it can’t be replaced so the replacement effect does nothing.
Key: Neither Malaren’s ability nor the rules for Indestructable
create replacement effects.. they just say the event can’t happen.
Conversely， two replacement effects could be "chained" on the same
event (albeit， only once each... they don’t loop)... check out
CR419.9a for the details.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue， 15 Jan 2008 09:18:55 -0700
From: Scott Marshall
Subject: Morningtide Rules Primer
For those who didn’t already notice this， the Rules Primer has been made
available; it was referenced by a link at the bottom of yesterday’s
Prerelease Primer article， by Noah Weil:
Have fun with your prerelease!
--
Thanks! -- Scott Marshall
DCIJUDGE-L NetRep， L4， Denver
List protocol:
(please， read the protocol before you post)
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 9 Jan 2008 to 15 Jan 2008 (#2008-5)
**************************************************************
Topics of the day:
1. Boggart Mob
2. Destroy + Indestructible + Regenerate
3. Morningtide Rules Primer
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon， 14 Jan 2008 12:46:57 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Boggart Mob
On Jan 8， 2008 12:25 PM， Gavin Duggan wrote:
> The boggarts win after all， and somehow corrupted my sources while
> they were at it. Triggers (and prevention or replacement effects)
> such as this DO use LKI -- or rather， the source of the damage uses
> LKI when queried as to its properties.
I’ve received a number of questions about this ruling; why it works
and which rule says so. I admit， it’s not entirely obvious from a
first reading of the， so I figured I’d take a stab at explaining it
fully here.
The two points of confusion seem to be
A) What types of information does LKI cover?
B) Does LKI apply in this situation -- is it correct to use LKI when
matching a trigger condition?
It’s important to note that LKI is defined by rule 413.2f. Other
rules which mention LKI are clarification or reminder rules (Thanks to
Jeff Jordan for helping sort this mess out):
413.2f. If an effect requires information from the game (such as the
number of creatures in play)， the answer is determined only once， when
the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a
specific object， including the source of the ability itself， the
effect uses the current information of that object if it hasn’t
changed zones; otherwise， the effect uses the last known information
the object had before leaving the zone it was expected to be in.
One such reminder rule is 310.4b: "The source of the combat damage is
the creature as it currently exists， if it’s still in play. If it’s no
longer in play， its last known information is used to determine its
characteristics. "
Unfortunately， it says ’characteristics’... which might lead some
people to believe that’s the only information that LKI applies to， but
last known information applies to ALL information that the game is
trying to determine about the actor. This includes controller，
flipped status， etc... the game effectively looks back in time to see
the properties of the actor _as it was_.
That small problem notwithstanding， 310.4b is very useful. It
confirms what CR413 told us... when the game does something based on a
combat damage source， it uses LKI if the actor has since changed
zones. It requires a little discretionary interpretation to get from
there to triggering abilities using LKI as well， but the ability
triggers based on the actor’s properties... and we know that it’s
properties are determined via LKI if it has changed zones.
Hopefully that clears up some of the logic and rules behind the use of
LKI for triggered abilities.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon， 14 Jan 2008 20:28:54 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Destroy + Indestructible + Regenerate
These aren’t exactly the same question， but they’re fairly similar in
reasoning， so....
On Jan 9， 2008 11:46 AM， Shalom Ashwal wrote:
> What happens if I target a knight of the holy nimbus equipped with shield
> of kaldra with vindicate?
> Is the destroy effect replaced by tapping the creature， removing all damage
> from it ect.. or since the creature is indestructible there is nothing to
> replace?
If something is indestructable， it can’t be destroyed. If it’s never
destroyed then its destruction can’t be replaced by regeneration... so
nothing happens.
> What about maralen of the mornsong (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?
> x=magic/morningtide/preview) and tomorrow
> (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Tomorrow，％20Azami’s％
> 20Familiar) if players can’t draw cards， does that mean they also can’t
> replace draws?
I know some people try to avoid spoilers until the prerelease so I’ve
let this idle for a few days to give them fair warning.
In any case... Tommorow’s ability replaces draws， but Malaren says you
can’t draw. Similar to the above situation， if something never
happens it can’t be replaced so the replacement effect does nothing.
Key: Neither Malaren’s ability nor the rules for Indestructable
create replacement effects.. they just say the event can’t happen.
Conversely， two replacement effects could be "chained" on the same
event (albeit， only once each... they don’t loop)... check out
CR419.9a for the details.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue， 15 Jan 2008 09:18:55 -0700
From: Scott Marshall
Subject: Morningtide Rules Primer
For those who didn’t already notice this， the Rules Primer has been made
available; it was referenced by a link at the bottom of yesterday’s
Prerelease Primer article， by Noah Weil:
Have fun with your prerelease!
--
Thanks! -- Scott Marshall
DCIJUDGE-L NetRep， L4， Denver
List protocol:
(please， read the protocol before you post)
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 9 Jan 2008 to 15 Jan 2008 (#2008-5)
**************************************************************
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