1月26日の日記
2008年1月26日There are 5 messages totalling 180 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Conspiracy and Sage of Fables etc. (2)
2. Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
3. Replacement effects on different objects but same event?
4. Winning the game
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 15:11:54 -0800
From: Farid Taoubi
Subject: Re: Conspiracy and Sage of Fables etc.
Hi，
I just want to know if I understood the right meaning of the ruling.
>419.6i. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent would be put
>into play. (See rules 419.1b-c.) Such effects check only the copiable
>values of the characteristics of that permanent as it would exist in
>play. Continuous effects that affected its characteristics in its
>previous zone or that will affect its characteristics once it’s in
>play are not taken into account.
>
>Conspiracy is quite obviously a layer 4 continuous effect... and
>definately not part of "copiable values". (For reference， that’s
>because CR 503.2 defines copiable values as approximately: the values
>that are printed on the object， modified by copy effects，
>face-downiness， and any values set by "comes into play as"， "as turned
>face up" abilities. Other effects， including type-changing effects and
>counters， are not copied.)
Is this also true for the Changeling ability? The effect of the Changeling
ability is applied in layer 4， just like the effect of the ability from
conspiracy. So， no counter for my Woodland Changeling if I control a Sage of
Fables?
--
Farid Taoubi，
Germany
------------------------
Woodland Changeling
1G
Creature - Shapeshifter
2/2
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times.)
Sage of Fables
2U
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
2/2
Each other Wizard creature you control comes into play with an additional
+1/+1 counter on it.
2， Remove a +1/+1 counter from a creature you control: Draw a card.
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 15:40:28 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Conspiracy and Sage of Fables etc.
On Jan 24， 2008 4:11 PM， Farid Taoubi wrote:
> >Conspiracy is [...] not part of "copiable values".
>
> Is this also true for the Changeling ability? [...] no counter for my Woodland Changeling if
> I control a Sage of Fables?
Your changeling gets the counter， and the CR have been changed to
reflect this.
"Changeling" is a characteristic defining ability (CDA)， which R&D
feels should be treatedly differently from other continuous effects in
this case. They are meant to modify the basic definition of the card
and should be "seen" by CIP replacement effects. Unfortunately， a
few people have been propagating the incorrect interpretation， despite
our requests to the contrary. This has caused some confusion that we
were hoping to avoid， so I will restate: at no point did the DCI or
R&D feel that such a creature shouldn’t get the counter. The fact
that the previous CR wording could be interpreted this way was an
oversight which has been fixed.
Seguing into Scott Marshall’s territory for a moment， this is a good
example of why Head Judges have (by virtue of the UTR) the authority
to overrule the CR in extreme cases. This should be used
judiciously... but any prerelease Head Judge who saw this interaction
and thought "Whoops， that’s a pretty big mistake... I should ask some
other people about that (if possible) and probably just rule that ’it
works’ until it gets fixed" would be spot on! Even if they had been
wrong (it happens)， as long as they were consistent for their event
and ruled in good faith... the event was well served.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 17:32:36 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
On Jan 23， 2008 5:46 PM， Rahul Chandra wrote:
> Alice controls Crucible of Worlds， Bob controls Yixlid Jailer. Can
> Alice play a land card from her graveyard?
Yes， for the reasons you stated: being able to play a land from the
graveyard is an ability of the Crucible (in play) and not granted to
the land in the bin.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 20:53:50 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Replacement effects on different objects but same event?
On Jan 22， 2008 11:19 PM， Sean Hunt wrote:
> If Johnson controls a Vigor and attacks with a 1/1 Elf token， and Diana
> blocks with her own token， then uses Benalish Missionary’s ability， does the
> Elf still get the counters? In this case， there seem to be two affected
> objects， so how are the replacement effects applied?
Benalish Missionary’s ability targets the Elf token， preventing it
from dealing any damage. Vigor， on the other hand， replaces the
damage dealt TO the elf... so there’s no conflict of replacement
effects here -- the elf will get the counters， and the blocker will
survive.
If， on the other hand， Johnson’s elf token had been blocking instead
of attacking， and was targeted by Benalish Missionary， then both Vigor
and the Missionary would try to prevent the damage. The affected
creature would be said Elf (the creature being dealt damage) and its
controller would， presmably， choose to prevent the damage with Vigor’s
effect... adding counters.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep {3UUU}
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri， 25 Jan 2008 15:21:16 +0600
From: Andrew Alchemist
Subject: Winning the game
Blessed be
Is winning a game due to no opponents left (CR102.2a) an SBE?
Specifically， if one player has a Platinum Angel out， and a Hurricane
for enough damage to drive it and every player negative resolves， why
the game isn’t a draw?
While CR 102.2a says， "A player still in the game wins the game if all
of that player’s opponents have lost the game."， if it is an SBE， then
when second round of SBE checks (that would make the player who didn’t
lose due to Platinum Angel win) would ensue， won’t CR 102.3e kick in?
"If a player would both win and lose simultaneously， he or she loses."
If no， why?
--
Good Luck
Andrew ’NightBeing’ Alchemist
L1 DCI# 52880669
Almaty， Kazakhstan
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-12)
****************************************************************
There are 3 messages totalling 108 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. MTGRULES-L Digest - 22 Jan 2008 to 23 Jan 2008 (#2008-10)
2. Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
3. Fire Covenant in 2HG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed， 23 Jan 2008 19:18:58 +0000
From: Robert Stanjer
Subject: Re: MTGRULES-L Digest - 22 Jan 2008 to 23 Jan 2008 (#2008-10)
There are two replacement effects here， but they are both affecting differe=
nt objects， so the token does get a counter， and damage is prevented to bot=
h of them.
_________________________________________________________________
Who’s friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml=
------------------------------
Date: Wed， 23 Jan 2008 19:46:07 -0500
From: Rahul Chandra
Subject: Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
Hi，
Alice controls Crucible of Worlds， Bob controls Yixlid Jailer. Can
Alice play a land card from her graveyard? I assumed "yes"， as
Crucible doesn’t seem to grant abilities to the lands， and Yixlid
Jailer doesn’t stop them from being lands.
Just checking as it doesn’t work this way on mtgo (reported quite a
while ago)， and I might have missed something.
My apologies if this is a double post - I sent it Jan 20， and didn’t
see it on the list or in the archives.
Rahul Chandra
L1 - St. John’s， NL， Canada
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 15:54:25 -0200
From: S=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C3=AD=C2=ADlton?= Leonardo Paiva Nunes
Subject: Fire Covenant in 2HG
A team in a Two-Headed Giant game have 30 life. Can a player of that =20
team plays Fire Covenant using 30 life as an additional cost? Or can =20
he spent only 15 life?
Oracle:
Fire Covenant
1BR
Instant
As an additional cost to play Fire Covenant， pay X life.
Fire Covenant deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of =20
target creatures.
Rules:
215. Life
215.1. Each player begins the game with a life total of 20. In a =20
Two-Headed Giant game， each team begins the game with a shared life =20
total of 30 instead; see rule 606， "Two-Headed Giant Variant."
215.4. If a cost or effect allows a player to pay life， the player may =20
do so only if his or her life total is equal to or greater than the =20
amount of the payment. If a player pays life， the payment is =20
subtracted from his or her life total.
606.9a If an effect needs to know the value of an individual player’s =20
life total， that effect uses the team’s life total divided by two， =20
rounded up， instead.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game， a team is at 17 life when a =20
player activates Heartless Hidetsugu’s ability， which reads， =20
"Heartless Hidetsugu deals to each player damage equal to half that =20
player’s life total， rounded down." For the purposes of this ability， =20
each player on that team is considered to be at 9 life. Heartless =20
Hidetsugu deals 4 damage to each of those players， for a total of 8 =20
damage. The team will end up at 9 life.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game， a player controls Test of =20
Endurance， an enchantment that reads， "At the beginning of your =20
upkeep， if you have 50 or more life， you win the game." At the =20
beginning of your upkeep， the player’s team wins the game only if his =20
or her share of the team’s life total is 50 or more. The team’s life =20
total must be 99 or more for that to happen.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game， a player controls Lurking =20
Jackals， which reads， "When an opponent has 10 life or less， if =20
Lurking Jackals is an enchantment， it becomes a 3/2 Hound creature." =20
If the opposing team has 22 life and 1 damage is dealt to a particular =20
opponent， Lurking Jackals won’t become a creature. The opposing team’s =20
life total must be 20 or less for that to happen.
S=EDlton Nunes
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP， the Internet Messaging Program.
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-11)
****************************************************************
Topics of the day:
1. Conspiracy and Sage of Fables etc. (2)
2. Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
3. Replacement effects on different objects but same event?
4. Winning the game
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 15:11:54 -0800
From: Farid Taoubi
Subject: Re: Conspiracy and Sage of Fables etc.
Hi，
I just want to know if I understood the right meaning of the ruling.
>419.6i. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent would be put
>into play. (See rules 419.1b-c.) Such effects check only the copiable
>values of the characteristics of that permanent as it would exist in
>play. Continuous effects that affected its characteristics in its
>previous zone or that will affect its characteristics once it’s in
>play are not taken into account.
>
>Conspiracy is quite obviously a layer 4 continuous effect... and
>definately not part of "copiable values". (For reference， that’s
>because CR 503.2 defines copiable values as approximately: the values
>that are printed on the object， modified by copy effects，
>face-downiness， and any values set by "comes into play as"， "as turned
>face up" abilities. Other effects， including type-changing effects and
>counters， are not copied.)
Is this also true for the Changeling ability? The effect of the Changeling
ability is applied in layer 4， just like the effect of the ability from
conspiracy. So， no counter for my Woodland Changeling if I control a Sage of
Fables?
--
Farid Taoubi，
Germany
------------------------
Woodland Changeling
1G
Creature - Shapeshifter
2/2
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times.)
Sage of Fables
2U
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
2/2
Each other Wizard creature you control comes into play with an additional
+1/+1 counter on it.
2， Remove a +1/+1 counter from a creature you control: Draw a card.
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 15:40:28 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Conspiracy and Sage of Fables etc.
On Jan 24， 2008 4:11 PM， Farid Taoubi wrote:
> >Conspiracy is [...] not part of "copiable values".
>
> Is this also true for the Changeling ability? [...] no counter for my Woodland Changeling if
> I control a Sage of Fables?
Your changeling gets the counter， and the CR have been changed to
reflect this.
"Changeling" is a characteristic defining ability (CDA)， which R&D
feels should be treatedly differently from other continuous effects in
this case. They are meant to modify the basic definition of the card
and should be "seen" by CIP replacement effects. Unfortunately， a
few people have been propagating the incorrect interpretation， despite
our requests to the contrary. This has caused some confusion that we
were hoping to avoid， so I will restate: at no point did the DCI or
R&D feel that such a creature shouldn’t get the counter. The fact
that the previous CR wording could be interpreted this way was an
oversight which has been fixed.
Seguing into Scott Marshall’s territory for a moment， this is a good
example of why Head Judges have (by virtue of the UTR) the authority
to overrule the CR in extreme cases. This should be used
judiciously... but any prerelease Head Judge who saw this interaction
and thought "Whoops， that’s a pretty big mistake... I should ask some
other people about that (if possible) and probably just rule that ’it
works’ until it gets fixed" would be spot on! Even if they had been
wrong (it happens)， as long as they were consistent for their event
and ruled in good faith... the event was well served.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 17:32:36 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
On Jan 23， 2008 5:46 PM， Rahul Chandra wrote:
> Alice controls Crucible of Worlds， Bob controls Yixlid Jailer. Can
> Alice play a land card from her graveyard?
Yes， for the reasons you stated: being able to play a land from the
graveyard is an ability of the Crucible (in play) and not granted to
the land in the bin.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 20:53:50 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Replacement effects on different objects but same event?
On Jan 22， 2008 11:19 PM， Sean Hunt wrote:
> If Johnson controls a Vigor and attacks with a 1/1 Elf token， and Diana
> blocks with her own token， then uses Benalish Missionary’s ability， does the
> Elf still get the counters? In this case， there seem to be two affected
> objects， so how are the replacement effects applied?
Benalish Missionary’s ability targets the Elf token， preventing it
from dealing any damage. Vigor， on the other hand， replaces the
damage dealt TO the elf... so there’s no conflict of replacement
effects here -- the elf will get the counters， and the blocker will
survive.
If， on the other hand， Johnson’s elf token had been blocking instead
of attacking， and was targeted by Benalish Missionary， then both Vigor
and the Missionary would try to prevent the damage. The affected
creature would be said Elf (the creature being dealt damage) and its
controller would， presmably， choose to prevent the damage with Vigor’s
effect... adding counters.
--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep {3UUU}
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri， 25 Jan 2008 15:21:16 +0600
From: Andrew Alchemist
Subject: Winning the game
Blessed be
Is winning a game due to no opponents left (CR102.2a) an SBE?
Specifically， if one player has a Platinum Angel out， and a Hurricane
for enough damage to drive it and every player negative resolves， why
the game isn’t a draw?
While CR 102.2a says， "A player still in the game wins the game if all
of that player’s opponents have lost the game."， if it is an SBE， then
when second round of SBE checks (that would make the player who didn’t
lose due to Platinum Angel win) would ensue， won’t CR 102.3e kick in?
"If a player would both win and lose simultaneously， he or she loses."
If no， why?
--
Good Luck
Andrew ’NightBeing’ Alchemist
L1 DCI# 52880669
Almaty， Kazakhstan
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 24 Jan 2008 to 25 Jan 2008 (#2008-12)
****************************************************************
There are 3 messages totalling 108 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. MTGRULES-L Digest - 22 Jan 2008 to 23 Jan 2008 (#2008-10)
2. Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
3. Fire Covenant in 2HG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed， 23 Jan 2008 19:18:58 +0000
From: Robert Stanjer
Subject: Re: MTGRULES-L Digest - 22 Jan 2008 to 23 Jan 2008 (#2008-10)
There are two replacement effects here， but they are both affecting differe=
nt objects， so the token does get a counter， and damage is prevented to bot=
h of them.
_________________________________________________________________
Who’s friends with who and co-starred in what?
http://www.searchgamesbox.com/celebrityseparation.shtml=
------------------------------
Date: Wed， 23 Jan 2008 19:46:07 -0500
From: Rahul Chandra
Subject: Yixlid Jailer and Crucible
Hi，
Alice controls Crucible of Worlds， Bob controls Yixlid Jailer. Can
Alice play a land card from her graveyard? I assumed "yes"， as
Crucible doesn’t seem to grant abilities to the lands， and Yixlid
Jailer doesn’t stop them from being lands.
Just checking as it doesn’t work this way on mtgo (reported quite a
while ago)， and I might have missed something.
My apologies if this is a double post - I sent it Jan 20， and didn’t
see it on the list or in the archives.
Rahul Chandra
L1 - St. John’s， NL， Canada
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail. Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail.yahoo.ca
------------------------------
Date: Thu， 24 Jan 2008 15:54:25 -0200
From: S=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=C3=AD=C2=ADlton?= Leonardo Paiva Nunes
Subject: Fire Covenant in 2HG
A team in a Two-Headed Giant game have 30 life. Can a player of that =20
team plays Fire Covenant using 30 life as an additional cost? Or can =20
he spent only 15 life?
Oracle:
Fire Covenant
1BR
Instant
As an additional cost to play Fire Covenant， pay X life.
Fire Covenant deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of =20
target creatures.
Rules:
215. Life
215.1. Each player begins the game with a life total of 20. In a =20
Two-Headed Giant game， each team begins the game with a shared life =20
total of 30 instead; see rule 606， "Two-Headed Giant Variant."
215.4. If a cost or effect allows a player to pay life， the player may =20
do so only if his or her life total is equal to or greater than the =20
amount of the payment. If a player pays life， the payment is =20
subtracted from his or her life total.
606.9a If an effect needs to know the value of an individual player’s =20
life total， that effect uses the team’s life total divided by two， =20
rounded up， instead.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game， a team is at 17 life when a =20
player activates Heartless Hidetsugu’s ability， which reads， =20
"Heartless Hidetsugu deals to each player damage equal to half that =20
player’s life total， rounded down." For the purposes of this ability， =20
each player on that team is considered to be at 9 life. Heartless =20
Hidetsugu deals 4 damage to each of those players， for a total of 8 =20
damage. The team will end up at 9 life.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game， a player controls Test of =20
Endurance， an enchantment that reads， "At the beginning of your =20
upkeep， if you have 50 or more life， you win the game." At the =20
beginning of your upkeep， the player’s team wins the game only if his =20
or her share of the team’s life total is 50 or more. The team’s life =20
total must be 99 or more for that to happen.
Example: In a Two-Headed Giant game， a player controls Lurking =20
Jackals， which reads， "When an opponent has 10 life or less， if =20
Lurking Jackals is an enchantment， it becomes a 3/2 Hound creature." =20
If the opposing team has 22 life and 1 damage is dealt to a particular =20
opponent， Lurking Jackals won’t become a creature. The opposing team’s =20
life total must be 20 or less for that to happen.
S=EDlton Nunes
----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP， the Internet Messaging Program.
------------------------------
End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 23 Jan 2008 to 24 Jan 2008 (#2008-11)
****************************************************************
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