2月3日の日記

There are 8 messages totalling 335 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. Weight of Conscience + Boomerang (2)
2. Butcher Orgg vs Banding
3. can Angels Grace cause you to gain life? (2)
4. Makeshift Mannequin vs. Sudden Spoiling (2)
5. Winning the game

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Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 12:39:52 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Weight of Conscience + Boomerang

On Jan 28， 2008 1:15 AM， Gavin Duggan wrote:
> Yes. The ability on the stack has a reference to its source... and we
> use LKI to determine the properties of that source (specifically， the
> identity of the card it was enchanting). If that card is still in
> play， we remove it from the game.

A few people have expressed confusion about this rule (and a previous
one involving the same template)， so I wanted to clarify a bit. The
confusion stems from the phrase "enchanted creature"， which can mean a
few things depending on how it’s used. The difference is in the
grammar， so we must pay close attention to whether "enchanted" is used
as a qualifier or a relationship.

An aura which refers to "enchanted creature" (without other
restrictions) means "the creature enchanted by ~this~". We can think
of these auras as saying "the enchanted creature" or "my enchanted
creature". This is very different than a card which refers to "an"
enchanted creature (ie: any creature with an enchantment on it;
Brainspoil or Ramses Overdark)， or "if X is enchanted" (Rayne， Acadamy
Chancellor)， or "enchanted creatures" (plural; see Song of Serenity).
All of these use ’enchanted’ differently.

So， in the case of Weight of Conscience the words "enchanted creature"
mean "that card that I’m sitting on"... if it’s not in play， then we
ask the related question ’what WERE you enchanting when last we saw
you in play’?

Hope that clears up a few things.

--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html

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Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 11:55:37 -0800
From: Lee Sharpe
Subject: Re: Weight of Conscience + Boomerang

In addition to Gavin’s excellent points， I also feel it’s worth
clarifying some other points about the "enchanted creature" template，
even though it’s not relevant to this particular question but comes up
from time to time， and can make it hard to interpret some cards
correctly if not known. But， if templating isn’t your thing， feel
free to skip over this. :)

Guilty Conscience: "Whenever enchanted creature deals damage， Guilty
Conscience deals that much damage to that creature."
Mark of Eviction: "At the beginning of your upkeep， return enchanted
creature and all Auras attached to that creature to their owners’
hands."

The location of the phrase "enchanted creature" determines when which
creature is enchanted is determined.

If it’s in the trigger condition text， like in Guilty Conscience， it’s
determined when the ability triggers， and the phrase "that creature"
later will refer back to the creature that was enchanted when the
ability triggered. On the other hand， if it’s in the effect text，
like in Mark of Eviction， it’s determined when the ability resolves.

While my example was used with triggered abilities， the same is true
for activated abilities. The phrase "enchanted creature" in the cost
text cares about what is enchanted when the ability is played. If
it’s in the effect text， the phrase "enchanted creature" is determined
on resolution (which Weight on Conscience does). Of course， just
because it’s determined on resolution doesn’t mean it won’t use LKI if
the Aura is not in play (and it in fact will).

--
Lee Sharpe， lee.sharpe@gmail.com
DCI Level 3 Judge
WotC NetRep for EFnet’s #mtgjudge

------------------------------

Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 21:40:58 +0100
From: David Mateo
Subject: Butcher Orgg vs Banding

Hi，
I’ve like to know how does Butcher Orgg interact with banding creatures. If
an attacking Orgg is blocked by two creatures， one of which has banding， wh=
o
gets to decide how the damage is assigned? I would guess that the golden
rule applies and Orgg "wins"， but I’d like to know the official answer. Doe=
s
it change anything if the banding creature is Knights of Thorn (protection
from red) ?

Thanks

---------------------------------
Butcher Orgg
You may divide Butcher Orgg’s combat damage as you choose among defending
player and/or any number of creatures he or she controls.
6/6
---------------------------------
Knights of Thorn
Banding， protection from red
2/2
---------------------------------

--=20
"Odio la realidad， pero es en el =FAnico sitio donde se puede comer un buen
filete"

-Woody Allen

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Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 16:31:44 -0600
From: Dan Weiner
Subject: can Angels Grace cause you to gain life?

Say you play Angel’s Grace and then you pay life (perhaps to
Necropotence) to bring your life total to -1. Then you are dealt some
damage. Will Angel’s Grace cause your life total to be "reduced"
upwards to 1? If not， will it at least prevent the damage and leave
you at -1?

Angel’s Grace
Instant， W
Split Second.
You can’t lose the game this turn and your opponents can’t win the
game this turn.
Until end of turn， damage that would reduce your life total to less
than 1 reduces it to 1 instead.

------------------------------

Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 15:57:05 -0800
From: Arkady Zilberberg
Subject: Makeshift Mannequin vs. Sudden Spoiling

Hello， all，

suppose I play Makeshift Mannequin targeting a Calciderm in my graveyard. Now， it’s hard to trigger the ability granted to it by Makeshift Mannequin’s effect， so my opponent decides to play Sudden Spoiling targeting me， then follows up with Afflict targeting the (now lacking Shroud) Calciderm. Will I have to sacrifice the Calciderm?

I think not as both Makeshift Mannequin’s continuous effect giving the ability to the creature and Sudden Spoiling ability-stripping effect are layer 5 effects (Rule 418.5a) and so are applied in timestamp order - thus the "sacrifice when this becomes a target" is not there to trigger when Darkblast is played. Is this reasoning correct?

Regards，
Arkady Zilberberg， level 1， Newton， MA， USA.

Calciderm

2WW

Creature - Beast

5/5

Shroud (This permanent can’t be the target of spells or abilities.)

Vanishing 4 (This permanent comes into play with four time counters
on it. At the beginning of your upkeep， remove a time counter from it.
When the last is removed， sacrifice it.)

Makeshift Mannequin

3B

Instant

Return target creature card from your graveyard to play with a
mannequin counter on it. As long as that creature has a mannequin
counter on it， it has "When this creature becomes the target of a spell
or ability， sacrifice it."

Sudden Spoiling

1BB

Instant

Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack， players can’t
play spells or activated abilities that aren’t mana abilities.)

Creatures target player controls become 0/2 and lose all abilities until end of turn.

Afflict

2B

Instant

Target creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn.

Draw a card.

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Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 20:08:33 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: can Angels Grace cause you to gain life?

On Jan 28， 2008 3:31 PM， Dan Weiner wrote:
> Say you play Angel’s Grace and then you pay life (perhaps to
> Necropotence) to bring your life total to -1. Then you are dealt some
> damage. Will Angel’s Grace cause your life total to be "reduced"
> upwards to 1? If not， will it at least prevent the damage and leave
> you at -1?

There but for the Grace of Angels go you? Unfortunately， no.

For starters you can’t spend life you don’t have.. so you can’t spend
life for something like Necropotence to get below zero. You could
drop to zero though， which is the same for our purposes， or lose life
to something like Disciple of the Vault to go below zero (NB: Angel’s
Grace and Worship don’t save you from life loss... only damage).

Then what happens if you take damage? Well， the trick (as always!) is
to read the wording of Angel’s Grace really carefully. AG is a
replacement effect which replaces the life loss (caused by the damage)
with some other amount of lifeloss. It only does so to damage that
"would reduce your life to less than one". In this case， the life
loss is reducing you to a number which is less than one， but it isn’t
reducing it from above one to less than one... so Angel’s Grace
doesn’t apply and your life total will go further into the negatives.

--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 22:10:00 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Makeshift Mannequin vs. Sudden Spoiling

On Jan 28， 2008 4:57 PM， Arkady Zilberberg wrote:

> suppose I play Makeshift Mannequin targeting a Calciderm in my graveyard. Now， it’s hard to trigger the ability granted
> to it by Makeshift Mannequin’s effect， so my opponent decides to play Sudden Spoiling targeting me， then follows up with Afflict
> targeting the (now lacking Shroud) Calciderm. Will I have to sacrifice the Calciderm?
>
> I think not as both Makeshift Mannequin’s continuous effect giving the ability to the creature and Sudden Spoiling
> ability-stripping effect are layer 5 effects (Rule 418.5a) and so are applied in timestamp order.

Yes. To determine the abilities (triggered or otherwise) of the
reanimated creature， we apply the layering system. As you noted，
Sudden Spoiling and Makeshift Manakin are both applied in layer 5 with
no dependancy， so we apply them in timestamp order... Manakin-izing
first， then Spoiling second... and the game sees no triggered
abilities.

An odd intersection of interesting effects， to be sure... but just
follow the rules and we come to the right answer :)

--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon， 28 Jan 2008 23:18:23 -0700
From: Gavin Duggan
Subject: Re: Winning the game

On Jan 25， 2008 2:21 AM， Andrew Alchemist wrote:
> Blessed be
>
> Is winning a game due to no opponents left (CR102.2a) an SBE?

Unlike the other ways of winning， this one isn’t an SBE... it’s simply
the definition of the game being over. That’s why it isn’t labelled as
one， and why the Platinum angel scenario doesn’t result in the draw...
there is no additional SBE check required.

Sorry bout the delay on this one ... it slipped through the cracks for
a couple of days :)

--
Gavin Duggan， L3 Calgary: MTGRULES-L Netrep
Please read the list protocol before posting to this list:
* http://www.invisiblejuggernaut.org/DCIJUDGEL_protocol.html

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End of MTGRULES-L Digest - 28 Jan 2008 to 29 Jan 2008 (#2008-15)
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